Letter of the Law Vs the Spirit of the Law – It's Not a Tiny House Podcast

Barna: [00:00:13] Could be 60 years old. And you want to move your parents into an accessory dwelling unit. They have to go over the same hurdles as a 20 year old that doesn't want to have that lifestyle.

Wyatt: [00:00:23] What we need our safe, secure places that someone can actually afford to live inside of.

Barna: [00:00:29] And this is a recurring theme of we're not going to let you do it.

Wyatt: [00:00:33] And you want a different lifestyle. It's not a tiny House podcast.

Wyatt: [00:00:40] So, Joe, did you say about Joe that you liked about him?

Barna: [00:00:43] No bullshit.

Wyatt: [00:00:44] No bullshit, but what did you label him as?

Barna: [00:00:47] An asshole.

Wyatt: [00:00:48] An asshole. And the reason that you said that you liked assholes was because there's no bullshit. Yeah, right.

Barna: [00:00:56] So straight up, you know where they stand, right? So somebody calls it being an asshole is just being brutally honest.

Wyatt: [00:01:04] Well, standing for something. Right. And you said also that you guys didn't necessarily agree on on numerous topics, things like politics, things like

Barna: [00:01:11] religion.

Wyatt: [00:01:12] Religion. Yet you still.

Barna: [00:01:14] I liked him. Oh yeah. We had we had lunch, breakfast,

Wyatt: [00:01:18] Despite all these things.

Barna: [00:01:19] Yeah. Right. Great guy.

Wyatt: [00:01:20] I got a question for you.

Barna: [00:01:21] He passed away.

Wyatt: [00:01:22] Oh I'm sorry. Sorry to hear that. But that question that has been burning since now we finally got, not finally, it's not like Sage took forever to do this, but now that the microphones are on, I have a question.

Barna: [00:01:33] It did take forever. We've been here an hour.

Wyatt: [00:01:35] You were eating cinnamon rolls and drinking tea.

Barna: [00:01:36] I'm still eating cinnamon rolls. I am not done with my cinnamon rolls.

Wyatt: [00:01:38] Right. Right. So the question that has been burning inside of my mind for the last three and a half to six minutes, however long it took. Am I an asshole?

Barna: [00:01:46] Sometimes.

Wyatt: [00:01:47] Because now sometimes I want to be an asshole because then people don't have to wonder whether or not I mean, what I'm talking about. I know what I'm talking about. And then I have conviction about what I'm talking about. A lot of times people think you're an asshole just to be an asshole versus just actually knowing what you believe and being willing to stand up for it.

Barna: [00:02:07] Yes, you have been an asshole just laying that out there.

Wyatt: [00:02:12] Yeah

Barna: [00:02:12] Yeah

Wyatt: [00:02:13] I remember the exact time too.

Barna: [00:02:15] OK

Wyatt: [00:02:16] And it was to, to go over exactly what you believe in and where the other person is wrong in what they believe. So the typical days you say, "Oh, I understand what you're saying and...

Barna: [00:02:28] I beat them up?

Wyatt: [00:02:29] No, you just. The question was housing committee meeting playing a zoning meeting afterwards, which is like, oh, these kids today, X, Y, Z. Right. That's your saying.

Sage: [00:02:40] Kids these days.

Barna: [00:02:42] Kids these days. Yeah and you are like; who raised us. Yes. Your fault. You got to take some responsibility. Can't just lay it on everybody else all the time.

Wyatt: [00:02:51] Sure

Barna: [00:02:51] And, you know, that.

Wyatt: [00:02:52] Came out a little hot. Yeah. But it's what I believe. And I didn't leave any nothing was left on the court. Right. Like I've said it before, I think I've even said it on this podcast already where it's like you don't get to blame the dog for peeing on the carpet. You blame the dog owner for not training them to make sure they go outside and do so. You don't blame kids for not knowing how to do shit.

Barna: [00:03:14] Yeah. Or or the kids owner. Right.

Wyatt: [00:03:15] You raised them. Yeah. So take some responsibility in that. And I do believe that. And I, I actually for all those people who I have been an asshole to because it has happened where I've steamrolled shit. Not happy with myself and proud of it. I am sorry about that. And I am figuring shit out but it's real and sometimes like you can be an asshole in a minute and not be of like all time asshole. Right. My sister says this and I love it. She goes, if you run into an asshole at eight o'clock in the morning you probably ran into an asshole. If you run into them all day long, you are the asshole. And I'm like, you know, you're right. And so I stopped running and assholes after a while because I decided I was the one who was.

Barna: [00:03:53] But there's there's a difference between being an asshole, being an asshole. I mean. Yeah, exactly. Is this the name of this podcast like, is this is our title.

Wyatt: [00:04:00] Well, and so the spirit of an asshole with the letter of the asshole. Right. Like, oh,

Barna: [00:04:05] That was that was a stretch, tied into what we're actually talking about,

Wyatt: [00:04:08] But we did it.

Barna: [00:04:09] But you did it. Good job. I applaud your efforts.

Wyatt: [00:04:10] Thank you and so I guess what that means is, is that sometimes you got real assholes. Those are going to be the letter of the law and spirit of the law is the temporary assholes who find the holes in the game, if you will. Right. Or in an example that you told earlier, the lapses of concise definition in, let's just say something like fence building code.

Barna: [00:04:39] Yeah

Wyatt: [00:04:40] Right. Or for example, another good example is going to be finding different uses inside of a piece of land that don't constitute, for example, residents versus being able to stay over the night like the that that gray area of, well, what is the residence and what is a dwelling unit.

Barna: [00:05:02] So just real quick to to go let's go through my story that I shared too early. I guess from now on, if Sage you asked me a question, I'll the answer is you'll find out during the podcast.

Wyatt: [00:05:15] There we go.

Barna: [00:05:15] You hear no more stories unless you have headphones on.

Wyatt: [00:05:19] On the record.

Barna: [00:05:19] I don't know you unless you have headphones on and we got mikes in front of our faces.

Wyatt: [00:05:23] Barna's going on the record only,

Barna: [00:05:25] Only. So the story was I bought a house corner lot a couple blocks off the highway and Main Street in Canyon City. And I, I cleaned up the lot, tons of trash on there for other people. For me, it's architectural salvage, it's for me, it's reclaimed wood and it's free building materials, so I'm going to build a cool fence. So I come up with the concept. I spend days cutting the wood to the proper size, 48 inches long, kept whatever with it was taking down the chain link fence. That I think is disgusting, in general. I think they should be banned and we should come up with a better way to put fencing around houses for animals.

Wyatt: [00:06:10] Now you are being an asshole.

Barna: [00:06:10] Yeah, totally. And I want to codify that, you know, do a good solid and my asshole should apply to everybody else, because that's what everybody else does. Let's do that.

Wyatt: [00:06:19] So just to be clear, you're taking 100 percent old recycled material. Otherwise, many people consider it. They'll call it trash, but really it's old wood pieces from old buildings or siding or whatever. Just so everybody who's who doesn't know, hasn't seen it knows what we're what we're talking about. Yeah. This is old architectural salvage talking buildings and shit.

Barna: [00:06:41] Yeah. Old building material that was left out weather usually.

Wyatt: [00:06:44] It's called reclaimed wood for you guys at home. And now people actually print reclaimed wood patterns, put it on fake laminate, put it on wood and you and so that's not this is actual, real, real wood. So anyway,

Barna: [00:06:57] Yes. So I decided to build this fence anyway. It was alternating widths of this basically one inch to three quarter inch thick wood. They're alternating sizes. So I just did a random pattern. And also it is different colors. So I built this fence. Now one side of my lot is about one hundred twenty feet. It's it's a square but it's on the corner. And it took me about a year to cut all the wood and and brad nail it all onto the new fence posts and everything I had to make. So I built this whole thing and I'm, I can see the corner of the lot. I'm I'm four or five feet away from finishing one side after a year work. This is through snow and everything. So I, I get there. And one morning there's a city of Canon City employee truck sitting there, guy sitting in it. And I don't care ,at this point, this is where I learned to hate city trucks.

Wyatt: [00:07:58] Ok, Barna still doesn't know about, like, you know, code enforcement and encoders and shit.

Barna: [00:08:04] Like this is me without that knowledge that you should already have based on this podcast, if you're listening to us.

Wyatt: [00:08:11] Well, they exist. They're real and they have.

Barna: [00:08:14] And they sit in front of your fucking house.

Wyatt: [00:08:15] They have the authority.

Barna: [00:08:17] Guy sitting there. He's just looking at me. I'm just happily nailing up the boards I cut the night before. I'm like, I am almost done. He opens the rolls down the window. It's like hey, um, you you should stop,

Wyatt: [00:08:32] Right, because you can't be doing what you're doing.

Barna: [00:08:35] Yes, that fence does not meet code.

Wyatt: [00:08:39] Doesn't conform to the written code.

Barna: [00:08:41] I'm like, who?

Wyatt: [00:08:42] Right. Never heard of her.

Barna: [00:08:43] Never heard of her.

Wyatt: [00:08:44] It's a strange name.

Barna: [00:08:45] Yeah. So but he explains to me the the reasoning for it, which I appreciate. So you can tell me no and give me a good reason and I'm with you even though I'm like, yes, I want to build this.

Wyatt: [00:08:57] You are good at that. Better than the other half of the people that are on this podcast anyway, because you're like, just tell me why. But but what you know how to do better than most is figure out the word they omitted and slip through that crack and go so now I am on the other side of the fence, no pun intended to the story.

Barna: [00:09:14] So he explained exactly what the code is broke it down for an idiot like me broke it down, said, OK, you have to have at least 50 percent open space between your fence pickets. That's why the white picket fence is so widely spaced. It's going to be over 30 inches. The max height is forty eight. So just by luck, I met that code requirement exactly, but not the open requirement.

Wyatt: [00:09:42] And this is because you're on a corner lot and vehicles coming up to a stop sign on a corner need to be able to.

Barna: [00:09:48] To see the other cars coming on the other.

Wyatt: [00:09:50] The adjacent street. Exactly right. So so not to say that this code isn't written in blood like many, because you know that.

Barna: [00:09:57] You're avoiding accidents.

Wyatt: [00:09:58] Yeah, exactly. You're helping people see when they're trying it.

Barna: [00:10:01] Now, it turns out utility companies don't have to follow this or anybody else but what we do. So anyway, I told them, come back the next day. I have a new design I'll come up with. I'll show you. And if you're cool with it, great. If not, I'll come up with something else you're probably not going to like. He's like, OK. Came back the next morning. I built a couple of foot long section of the fence I currently have, which is 60 percent open now it's one inch slots with one and a quarter inch space between them. Right. But it's still relatively a tight pattern, but it's still different colors, different, you know, shades, different types of wood. And so I show them next morning, like, I got no problem with that. That's great. That meets all the requirements. That's all I wanted. OK, he goes by the way, what were you going to do if I didn't like this? Oh, I was going to do the same one inch or three quarter inch thick board, but I'm going to turn a 12 inch board on its side. So from the front, which is what the requirement says or the code says, yep, you will be able to see through it.

Wyatt: [00:11:07] Fifty percent minimum. So inch and a half wide by inch and a half wide gaps.

Barna: [00:11:11] The gaps were the same from the front. But if you look at it from the side, yeah. You cannot see through it. It is a solid wall.

Wyatt: [00:11:18] You could probably have accomplished that with something even as narrow as four inches deep from the side. Right. Because if you guys think of the angle of perception on that, when you're looking at something straight on, you'll see the board and the gap in the board in the gap. But as you walk to the side and you begin to achieve an angle, let's just say forty five degrees. Light can't pass through because the one immediately next to it is obstructing the back of the one, obviously, to the next side of that one. So you can't see through it for shit.

Barna: [00:11:46] So this is the letter versus the letter of the law. Letter of the law says you have to be fifty percent open in your fencing. But that's not the spirit of the law, the spirit of the law is you have to provide a way for vehicles to see and pedestrians when you're backing out of your driveway. So you just need enough space to see another object, person, thing moving to avoid collisions and other accidents. That's the spirit. The letter is different from the spirit.

Wyatt: [00:12:17] Right. And so that's kind of what what certain people, depending on one's background, will refer to as a legal loophole. They will read a, you know, a section of law and it'll have you know, you can't do such and such and such. Well, it doesn't say I can't do this. Right. And that's the letter versus the spirit. The letter the law is is the best attempt that they can have to and how they're going to limit that and keep it. But the spirit of the law is like what Barna's talking about, where we're trying to keep this fence open so people can see through it. So we don't have to send out EMS all the time and we're not hurting and killing people. I mean, that's that's the actual spirit of law. It has a good intention. It's written like people drawing it on graph paper, not understanding the third dimension of of what we live in. And that's kind of like where where are we going to go with certain things today? Because letter versus spirit of the law, obviously, this is a housing podcast and code is written kind of like our Constitution has a little bit of vagueness and is open for a little bit of interpretation. And if it hasn't been written such that you can't do it explicitly, it's your job to figure out how you can do it. And that's the letter versus the spirit of law.

Barna: [00:13:32] But the, at the same time, the spirit is easy. Right? Code is difficult.

Wyatt: [00:13:40] It complex.

Barna: [00:13:41] It's complicated and it becomes longer every time.

Wyatt: [00:13:44] Yeah.

Barna: [00:13:44] Somebody comes along and games the system.

Wyatt: [00:13:47] Yeah.

Barna: [00:13:48] And that's what this podcast has been about so far, is how to game.

Wyatt: [00:13:52] Essentially how to understand where to find it and know the rules of the game, because there are hosts of people that that we've talked about off air or off whatever, cast, whatever it's called. And it's like the reason that that, for example,

Barna: [00:14:07] I think it's offline.

Wyatt: [00:14:08] Offline. OK, so guys like like not the only reason, but some of the main reasons. Guys like Tim Ferriss became world renowned and multiple things is because they read the actual rulebook to what they were trying to win or accomplish. Read it and interpreted the letter versus the spirit played inside the rules, but gamed it and all of a sudden they got a trophy at the end of it and they have, you know, accolades, which is something that we think is kind of hilarious and something that we're doing. So with that like the way that we're talking about skirting it, it's not necessarily skirting because it has a bad connotation.

Barna: [00:14:45] We are following the letter of the law.

Wyatt: [00:14:48] And like land use, this is a good place for us to kind of begin to, I think, paint a broader picture. Right. Land use has distinctions inside of it. Like we've talked about, commercial land use is different from residential land use. Yet if you pull back the lens a little bit and say, what's the difference? Commercial land use is primarily for business, right? And residential land use is primarily for residents living, sleeping overnight in that kind of shit. Where's the gray area overlap? Hotel rooms. Is one example, right? So look at this, just think of this idea of a tiny home is a residential attempt, although it doesn't meet certain requirements like square footage, right?

Barna: [00:15:34] Yeah. And typically on wheels.

Wyatt: [00:15:37] And they're on. Yeah, yeah. Primarily they're on wheels. And the host of things we've talked about them to be difficult. Next door to them is going to be like a motor home or an RV. Now that's technically going to classify itself inside of an RVP. Right. So.

Barna: [00:15:53] You've got to be in the RV park for those. So there are special zoning regulations for those.

Wyatt: [00:15:59] Another distinction.

Barna: [00:16:00] It's another form of temporary living,

Wyatt: [00:16:02] Right.

Barna: [00:16:03] That could be long term depending on the the code, this is where the spirit starts fighting the code.

Wyatt: [00:16:12] And we go like, well, what's long term? Do I have to move it 10 feet? Can I move it four feet? Can I move it 100 feet? Can it go from this side of the RV park to that side of the RV park? What what the fuck is long term?

Barna: [00:16:23] So so with with us, I think we're following the letter of the law. Where the reason of that is that the people who created the law don't agree with the spirit that the law should have. Right. So that's the conflict. We think the law should help people have a place to live.

Wyatt: [00:16:44] Right.

Barna: [00:16:45] That simple. Yeah. The people who make, some of the people, who are making these rules, making the laws. Don't want people here that are a certain income level...

Wyatt: [00:17:00] Let's just say demographic,

Barna: [00:17:01] Demographic. Let's not get really specific. We might get into trouble.

Wyatt: [00:17:05] We'll unpack some of that shit, because that's all really real. But at the same time, like, if you if you're this deep into the podcast already, I think you know where that's where he's headed with that. Right. Like "those people" happens all the time. Right. So but but continue on with a small structure in a different land use. Now you talk about things like cabins, the old cabin in the woods. Generally speaking, that cabin is going to share something similar in floorplan size. Won't have wheels on it, but that's going to land inside of, generally speaking, especially in this state anyway, agriculture, forest land, different requirements inside of that. And then lastly, something similar in size again. And amenities is going to be something that's going to hit like I've already talked about in commercial land use, which is a hotel or motel room. Now, you have to figure out because, well, they all are kind of similar. If you if you kind of take away some of your preconceived notions, they have a small floor plan. They'll generally have a bed in them, a shower of some form in them, a bathroom in them, because you've got to be able to you know, humans create waste within minutes to hours after arriving on site. Like that's problem number one. And lighting fixtures, a roof four fucking walls and a door minimum and maybe some windows and stuff. Right. So if you just go, well, yeah, I guess the bones of that are all kind of the same. Yet each one of those that we just listed, and there are more, are on different pieces of land. So the first thing they do and this happened yesterday when the plumbing inspector came in for our rough plumbing inspection, which passed by the way, he looked at it and I could see him off. He was looking at a different container from the one I was working in. He has a flashlight. He flashes it inside of it. He's got a puzzled look on his face. And the first words out of his mouth were, what am I looking at? No joke. First word and I go, well, you're looking at.

Barna: [00:19:02] The wrong first container

Wyatt: [00:19:04] First of all, you're not even on you're on the right parcel of land. Congratulations.

Barna: [00:19:09] Close.

Wyatt: [00:19:09] He did great. But so what are you calling this? Because that's the box that your stuff has fit inside of.

Barna: [00:19:15] That's a book you're in.

Wyatt: [00:19:16] That's the book. And so he's the plumbing inspector. So, IPC, you had to look up your state generally or your local area which year you're in and then you'll go. This is a commercial project, an ag project, this is the RV park project. This is a residence where you are you have to find that code because what I found out yesterday was a sink is not a sink, right? And in a commercial space, as an example, if any of you guys have been commercial cooks or inside of a restaurant kitchen, they have a separate sink for hand washing than they do for food preparation. OK. But at home in your residence, most people still wash their hands in their kitchen sink too. Yet so you don't need a separate handwashing sink in a residential unit, but you will in a commercial unit,

Barna: [00:20:06] Are you sure you don't?

Wyatt: [00:20:08] I don't know, actually, because.

Barna: [00:20:10] That was my those thoughts when we were talking about this last night.

Wyatt: [00:20:13] Actually, I did ask that.

Barna: [00:20:14] Is what do I do? Like if I just take it out, my sink, out of my bathroom? Am I breaking the law?

Wyatt: [00:20:19] You have to have a separate sink. Breaking the law, breaking the law, breaking the law. The spirit of the law.

Barna: [00:20:24] Living dangerously. There's no sink in my bathroom.

Wyatt: [00:20:27] So the spirit there says we don't think that you should be mixing human waste potential with food, waste.

Barna: [00:20:35] Fecal sporazoa.

Wyatt: [00:20:36] Fecal sporazoa, whatever he said. Right. So how depending on how, you know, sanitary you are when you are using the restroom, let me put it that way. Right. So that is a separate sink. Even though they drain to the same place, it's all black water in Colorado. You can't do shit with any of that because that's another another point of the conversation. That's all illegal. You can't filter it and reuse it unless you're only going to use it for irrigation. But I guess my point there is, is that the spirit says you have to have separate sinks. The letter is written slightly differently. So if you don't have a food prep area in your unit, my question would be, can I only have one sink? And that's because it's clearly the lavatory in a hotel. You can write because there's no food prep area in a hotel.

Barna: [00:21:23] In a hotel room. So that's what the designs were based on. Is that you go in a hotel, you have your bathroom, typically toilet, shower, minimum, and sometimes you have your sink on the outside.

Wyatt: [00:21:36] And oftentimes I think that that separate sink on the outside is so someone can be using the restroom and another person can be sitting washing their hands or doing their makeup or, you know, have access to running water. Right. But that sink is a lavatory, not a kitchen sink.

Barna: [00:21:52] And it has to have certain certifications.

Wyatt: [00:21:53] And it must have certain certifications. This is how it's written and how it has to be done.

Barna: [00:21:59] Now, here's the best part. You go to Home Depot or Lowe's or any any hardware store. Yeah. You're not going to find that information. That, and I've bought, I don't know, dozens of sinks.

Wyatt: [00:22:11] I have 4 right now myself I don't fucking have any place for them to go.

Barna: [00:22:15] But where's the stamp that says, OK, this is a lavatory sink this is a kitchen sink. This is this can only be used for hand washing,

Wyatt: [00:22:22] Not defined by size.

Barna: [00:22:24] Where is that information? And this I, I learned this from our plumber that the stuff you buy at your local hardware store, you as a homeowner can buy it and install it. It doesn't, there are zero guarantees that it will meet current code. Actually, it will not meet current code. I've bought faucets that do not meet current code. As a homeowner, I can put them in. But if you're building something for resale, rental or anything else, you cannot have that in there.

Wyatt: [00:22:56] Commercial, and it has different placatory. So I guess like all the way to real it all the way back in, you still have to know what box. And this is something that our plumber has preached to us. And I think we're finally, you know, buying his vernacular. You got to know a box you fit in inside of. Or like I said to Brianna last night, I will spend almost my entire rest of my life's work undoing what certain people have done because of the level of stupidity I believe we have now breached. This is ridiculous to me how I can go, dude there's no food prep area here. Well, has to be a lavatory sink to find lavatory sink. Is it a certain size width and depth?

Barna: [00:23:36] Well, yeah, it has to be small enough for you to splash all the water outside.

Wyatt: [00:23:40] So half the water lands on the floor.

Barna: [00:23:41] So let me get back to the spirit of of this law, right. That is, let's not get fecal sporazoa on your food. Let's not get poop on your food. Very, very basic.

Wyatt: [00:23:52] We've all had shitty food, but I don't know.

Barna: [00:23:55] This is how you get food poisoning. I mean, there is a reason for the this code that was written. But the spirit is very basic. Now, the spirit, of course, is good. It's a good idea. But then you're hit with the reality that if you're in a hotel room and you flush your toilet, the splash back vapor, water vapor with poop in it goes everywhere. Myth Busters did an episode on this and they had a bathroom. They basically scrubbed everything with bleach and then used the toilet, flushed it repeatedly, and then they took samples of the bathroom. And they're like, well, let's just go up to the next room over. They took samples from there and lets do the hallway, the floor, everything. They were surprised that four doors down in their kitchen, they still found, poop.

Wyatt: [00:24:52] Yeah, shit bomb.

Barna: [00:24:54] So the spirit is great, the reality is you're not you're not going to be able to avoid it unless you build yourself an outhouse, right.

Wyatt: [00:25:03] A separate unit. That's at least four doors from your kitchen. Apparently, you have to just those are those are in that.

Barna: [00:25:09] So this is overprotection. This is creating rules.

Wyatt: [00:25:14] And costs.

Barna: [00:25:15] To meet a spirit like the spirit is good. Let's go back to that. But the code is junk. Now now I need a different shape, size, we don't even know what,

Wyatt: [00:25:27] We don't even know what.

Barna: [00:25:27] Sink, that we have to wash our hands in, that we have to have another sink two inches away from it.

Wyatt: [00:25:36] He said you could have them right next to one another.

Barna: [00:25:38] So two inches away, I can have a hand washing sink out of the bathroom and two inches away, I can build a second sink to wash my vegetables in.

Wyatt: [00:25:47] He literally drew it on a piece of paper for me. He said, you know, you could do a lavatory sink here and then next to it do another sink. You tell me what the fuck good that does there on the same trap. In the same drain. But I would also, because of the way the code is written, have to put a different vent in between those two sinks because only so many sink in fixture units can vent to a certain drain. So point being, can't always agree with everybody's everything. But the letter versus the spirit is an important understanding because and you have to give yourself a little grace here if you're doing this, these aren't loopholes. These are a further and better understanding of what is actually written and what you want to accomplish. It's OK every once in a while. I know your schoolteachers didn't tell you this. It's OK every once in a while to, you know, bump elbows with the rules and kind of just see why they're there, because, yeah,

Barna: [00:26:37] That was the, we should have started with that. We're going to, this is going to be the beginning.

Wyatt: [00:26:42] Were going to play this one in reverse.

Barna: [00:26:43] We'll do this a reverse. Yeah. Because and then it'll tie in with the next one because turns out we do everything backwards.

Wyatt: [00:26:48] We do everything backwards.

Barna: [00:26:50] We start building and then we figure out what we can build after it's built.

Wyatt: [00:26:53] So I start from structure. Right, like I know building structure. I know their insulation. I know certain things like that. Like that's what I know intimately well. I've been building in my whole fucking life. What I don't know is that when the electrician is going to walk in, he goes, oh, the outlet has to be 14 inches above the backsplash or whatever the fuck he's going to say. Right. Like, there's just this and you got to have clearances for certain things. And so, yes, it'll fit. Will it fit and then fit inside of code are the things that you need to kind of be leery of because you'll consistently undo what you've just done. If you don't know some of this shit on the front end.

Barna: [00:27:26] Follow us, like us, share, subscribe. Follow us on YouTube, Instagram, Facebook or wherever you consume your podcasts.

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