The State of Housing With Joe Toscano – It's Not a Tiny House Podcast

Wyatt: [00:00:23] What we need our safe, secure places that someone can actually afford to live inside of.

Barna: [00:00:29] And this is a recurring theme of we're not going to let you do it.

Wyatt: [00:00:33] And you want a different lifestyle. It's not a tiny House podcast.

Wyatt: [00:00:38] We're sitting here today with Joe Toscano. And after that its all you.

Barna: [00:00:42] Rock star.

Wyatt: [00:00:43] Yeah, and check out the hair for real. You need to see the videos.

Barna: [00:00:47] We'll upload the videos eventually.

Wyatt: [00:00:48] There it is. There it was. So tell us a little bit about tell us a little bit about your life. Joe: [00:00:56] Future resident of the area, probably the next few months. So pretty excited about that. But other than that, I mean workwise. I am a designer. I designed the Internet. Used to work for Google.

Wyatt: [00:01:07] You and Al Gore. Joe: [00:01:11] Al Gore just has pictures everywhere. He doesn't do anything.

Barna: [00:01:15] He just funded it, you designed it. Joe: [00:01:17] Yeah. Yeah, we're making clean we're making clean things. So, yeah, I was a consultant for Google. I left about three and a half almost four years ago now. I have since worked on making ethical technology at the forefront of everyone's minds, creating frameworks, creating law, create new software products. So it's been a good journey. I've written a book. The book is called Automating Humanity.

Barna: [00:01:40] It's one of the nicest books I've seen in the last twenty years.

Wyatt: [00:01:45] When we got our hands on this thing, we both walked out. I was like, fuck man, this book is correct. Like the way that you guys did it. Joe: [00:01:52] I mean, I did it. I wrote it and designed it. And I found out why nobody does that. Yeah, because nobody does this it's hard as hell. Yeah.

Barna: [00:02:01] It takes forever how long did you spend on that. Joe: [00:02:04] I made this whole thing in eight months.

Wyatt: [00:02:06] I bet that took years off your fucking life. Joe: [00:02:08] It did though. Yeah. Yeah.

Barna: [00:02:09] It's almost a baby. Right. Joe: [00:02:11] It literally was, it was painful to come out. It's been painful for the last two and a half years. Yeah. Doesn't speak English. Joe: [00:02:18] I made this because I know that a lot of the issues going on the Internet are not accessible to the average person. Like the big book that everyone like talking to me because I'm a tech expert and they go, you read Shoshana Zuboffs Surveillance Capitalism. And I'm like, actually, I haven't. And they're like, why? And I'm like, because it sits as a doorstop at my house. It's 800 pages and nobody has time for that. I made this and this is what amounts to an adult picture book.

Barna: [00:02:44] That's why I liked it. Joe: [00:02:46] That was the goal. It was like, let's make this like a semi-comic semi-book and I think people will pick it up and read it more. It's not going to make you a tech expert, but it's going to allow you to talk about things and be a part of the conversation. That was the whole point of it, I since created my own company called BEACON the Better Ethics and Consumer Outcomes Network. So we take those ethical problems, translate them into consumer outcomes because it is a consumer outcome, it becomes a business problem and we can make money on it rather than just hopes and prayers, you know? Right. Because that doesn't work.

Barna: [00:03:15] Hopes and dreams. Joe: [00:03:17] Treat me better! Yeah, I would love to, but let's figure out how to also make money doing it because we can. And then, yeah, so from there if anyone's seen me it's probably from the Social Dilemma on Netflix featured in the Social Dilemma. I work with the World Economic Forum, I write for Forbes. So CV, I'm a I'm all over the place, my resume. But,

Wyatt: [00:03:35] Now you are here. Joe: [00:03:36] Now I am here. Coming to help out with technology developments out here. You're very excited to help upscale the community and create jobs and Move things forward.

Wyatt: [00:03:47] And bringing other people to the community. I know that you already brought in multiple people to come and see the project that we're working on together, obviously. And that's how this ties back to housing, tiny house, it's not a tiny house conversation that we were having right before we hit the red record button on trying to figure out how to kind of explain to people the reasons that this house that we're talking about, the small living structure, is not a tiny house. And that's because local code requirements are met and it's not on wheels. It's on a permanent foundation. Are the two big, big, big bullet points right that we have to help people understand? But also, affordable housing is a massive challenge that's not just localized here in a small town or your small town or anywhere. It's everywhere. And a lot of it has to do with rising health care and education costs and housing as well. And so, like, that's kind of where everybody that works in tech or doesn't work in tech. Everybody has to live somewhere. And there's natural overlap for all of us because everybody needs a cave.

Barna: [00:04:48] So in tech and in California, how expensive is housing there? Joe: [00:04:54] It's pretty bad. I mean, I could buy a couple houses out here for sure for that right.

Barna: [00:04:57] For the same amount of money. Joe: [00:04:58] So. Yeah, yeah. I mean. For context, so I was living in a decent neighborhood in San Francisco, up on Bernal Heights, up on the hill, like great look out into the city, all those things. But also it was not even like in the city. And I was paying twenty three hundred dollars a month for a one bedroom in a three bedroom house.

Wyatt: [00:05:19] Smash your head against the wall.

Barna: [00:05:23] So that's with roommates right?

Wyatt: [00:05:23] Yeah, that I didn't know and didn't have a choice on because there are a thousand people applying per house every single day out there.

Wyatt: [00:05:29] There's a housing shortage. Right. Is like number one. But also there aren't a lot of people in general, pop, they're going to hit that dollar amount for what their monthly expenditure is for housing, because affordable housing is 35 percent of your monthly take-home. Right. So that puts you somewhere at, you know. Eight, seven grand all done right? Joe: [00:05:52] I definitely I mean, I was making a good salary

Wyatt: [00:05:53] sure yeah, Joe: [00:05:55] Because I'm in tech, so it works, but like the average person in San Francisco. That's why that's why San Francisco is not what it used to be. Right. Because the rates have risen so high, everyone out there in tech is making so much money. We just, yeah, what do you want and we just snap it up, I got the cash/ cash, like whatever.

Barna: [00:06:10] And everybody else that has to work in the same neighborhood can't afford it. Joe: [00:06:14] They're getting pushed out like that. There's no culture in San Francisco anymore. It's tech bro and maybe some of the natives, but most of the natives are now outside of the city because they just can't afford it.

Wyatt: [00:06:23] All they had if they had known they had been smart enough and had two rental properties in front of them. And that's how gentrification, in that sense, would have helped the very few locals. Joe: [00:06:33] For sure.

Wyatt: [00:06:34] They would have already owned it. Joe: [00:06:34] I mean, when I so, add on to that, when I left the low income right, that's poverty level, low income in San Francisco was one hundred and seventeen thousand two hundred dollars a year.

Wyatt: [00:06:45] For those of you listening at home, that's not everywhere, obviously. Right. San Francisco is a dot on a map for a lot of people that are never even going to consider necessarily going there because they're like, yeah, it's expensive. That's how expensive it's one of, if not the most expensive places in the world. You know, if you make one hundred grand in Fremont County, you don't know. I mean, there's no limit on the size of the house to sell you down here. Pretty much, you know, like, well, you want the biggest ones. So so this dollar amount, like you think, OK, so we're at one hundred. Let's bring it down to more local Fremont County, you're in mid 30s. Is your median income, right? OK, so what's your affordability there? Now you come back into that. Thirty five percent of that, you're looking at a thousand dollars a month. Or less Joe: [00:07:28] Less.

Wyatt: [00:07:29] Far less. I think, I think five hundred dollars Joe: [00:07:31] Seven, eight hundred is reasonable.

Wyatt: [00:07:32] I like the idea of five hundred bucks a month. Joe: [00:07:35] Definitely yeah, that's a very easy number.

Wyatt: [00:07:38] And it's an easy number to want. It's not an easy number to accomplish. However, you can't do it with the existing model. You change something. And my proposition, our proposition really change square footage don't change quality, shrink it. Right. And all of a sudden you're like, hey, I want to build a smaller house and people lose their shit. And we're like, what are you talking about? Who is supposed to afford that big fucking house and who owns it? I don't want it. I don't want to clean it and he didn't cool it. And you guys have heard me on a soapbox about it. You've traveled more especially recently than myself. And probably well Barna's been, you know, to the Midwest and stuff

Barna: [00:08:17] And housing is definitely different there.

Wyatt: [00:08:19] It is. But it's the same problem with a different zero because wages are generally tied to an area, right? Joe: [00:08:27] Yeah. I mean, the wages I was making in San Francisco relative to Nebraska, I'd still be I'd still be like comfortable, but it wouldn't be excessive. It's just your salary and all those numbers are relative. But yeah, I mean, I've been around the world the last three and a half years. I've been on four different continents, many different states and nations like I've seen all different kinds of living. I've seen everything from New York where you're in the high rises and penthouses all the way to like Brazil, where I was literally sleeping on the floor with my friends at their house because that's how their family grew up. You know, they just didn't know the difference and, you know, everything in between. So, for me, I'm very fluid in my lifestyle because I don't, I see the shiny thing and I can appreciate it, but I don't necessarily need it all the time.

Wyatt: [00:09:13] But it's nice to be able to rent it every once in a while or borrow it or whatever. You want to be able to touch it but you can take it home. It's a fucking puppy, soon as you take it home. You're not giving it back, but it's nice to pet and be like, that was cute. All right.

Barna: [00:09:25] You got bills that go with that puppy you know.

Wyatt: [00:09:27] But and so, so seeing now through the the spectrum of where our planet is really and especially for us today, the United States. Right. We're looking at like you can make this amount of money in this location. You can make this amount of money in this location. You said it. It's relative, right? So cost is a it's not a fixed, but it's a need. And so we see that, like, however much you make that area is kind of how much relative to how much housing costs. Right. Joe: [00:09:55] Well, in salaries just haven't gone up relative to the cost of housing going up, the cost of our student loans going up the cost of everything around us going up.

Barna: [00:10:01] Health care.

Wyatt: [00:10:03] But Joe, make sure that you round this out. You have never listened to our podcast yet and heard me say what you just said before right? Joe: [00:10:11] No, no.

Wyatt: [00:10:11] So. Right. We have come up with. Joe: [00:10:13] I read books though. I read books, I watch the news.

Wyatt: [00:10:16] I am saying you didn't hear me say that. So I'd be like, make sure you say this on the podcast. That was fucking organic. You said it meant it because it's real. These are fucking facts of our generation. Joe: [00:10:28] I mean, think about this. I'm thirty one. I've never had a house in my life. And I have I've literally, statistically, financially, I've been in the one percent in my life and I can't afford house. have been able to yet because. Why? Because I've had too much debt throughout my whole life paying off student loans. Like, are you kidding me.

Wyatt: [00:10:42] This is real life. man. I can, I have have been able to build a home since I was a teenager and have never had one. Yeah. Never, never even considered the idea of being able to fucking own one because the same real debt went to college debtm took out a credit card debt, truck debt. Got to do this fucking debt. Right. Like we live underneath that.

Barna: [00:11:06] And you're healthy, wait until you get sick once. Joe: [00:11:09] Yeah. I've never been I don't get sick like doesn't happen but I pay for it. Just in case.

Wyatt: [00:11:14] Of course, that's what insurance is. Joe: [00:11:16] And we're the first generation that's expected to die with debt.

Wyatt: [00:11:20] Yeah. Joe: [00:11:20] That's crazy. How we don't even have we don't have any retirement. We don't have pensions. We have a 401k that changes with the market. Like my whole retirement can shit in a day because it's stock market, it's not a pension. The whole system.

Barna: [00:11:37] It's also not cash. It's all you're sitting on a million dollars right now. So I can do whatever I want. That's not how it works. Joe: [00:11:44] You pull it out, then you get taxed and then you've got all these other things going with it.

Wyatt: [00:11:47] It amounts to nothing by the time it's over with. And the interesting thing about our our conversation, just up until this point, we have had wonderfully different career field choices, same reality. Debt is the dragon that nobody's talking about. Joe: [00:12:03] I work 60 to 80 hours a week.

Wyatt: [00:12:05] Fuck yeah. Joe: [00:12:05] I'm not working a 40 hour week and retire with a pension of sixty. That's not happening.

Wyatt: [00:12:10] You can't even find that job anyway. Right. And so and so that same reality. Right. Sixty. Somebody said that forty hours a week? I'm like I remember my first vacation. Joe: [00:12:18] House by twenty five? That's not even possible.

Wyatt: [00:12:21] What do they say, 2.2 kids? Whatever. Or 2.8 Kids. Whatever you used to say like that, by the certain age, you had X amount of dollars, you had your house, you had your white picket fence and your 2.5 kids. That was.

Barna: [00:12:32] And no debt. Because you bought your house for five grand. You got a car for 800 dollars, your college education, you delivered your kid for 180 dollars like that's what it cost.

Wyatt: [00:12:41] Yeah, somebody said it. I'm not I'm just going to repeat it. Like, how can there be a generation of people that are this ignorant and got their college education for the price of a McChicken, right. Ha ha. Not joking, though, you guys. Our reality is, is that when you look at education costs doubling in the last 20 years, anybody educated in the last 20 years, it was doubled there. Joe: [00:13:03] I mean, hell, like my parents, my parents were postal workers and they had a house, like, yeah, they did not go to college. They needed they had a house and kids and all this. By the time they were late 20s,

Wyatt: [00:13:13] My father was a train engineer, raised three kids by himself, had a house, has a hunting house, hunting land. He likes his nice new truck, all that stuff. They do well, right. But they also didn't live inside of the same system that was constantly trying to, like, screw you for every single cent and then make you pay points on it. Right. So, yeah, the old system, we would love to believe it's still there, but it's not. It's just fucking not there. And by the time you realize what is happening, you've already taken the pill and swallowed the debt and then you're like, oh shit, because you were 18 and Joe: [00:13:47] And then you vote for Bernie Sanders because you are like "take it away!". And then right now that doesn't work. Yeah , that doesn't actually work.

Wyatt: [00:13:53] It doesn't actually work that way either. Joe: [00:13:55] Hopes and dreams.

Wyatt: [00:13:55] Right. And so. What is it with our local area, because now you've gone you've run the gamut, you've seen the places. What do you like about our local area? Because you just said you said it, not me. Joe: [00:14:10] I'm moving. Yeah, well, it's affordable. You know, that's point blank. Like baseline. I can own a home out here.

Wyatt: [00:14:20] It's beautiful.

Barna: [00:14:21] But Bucyrus, Ohio, you can buy Victorian for 30 grand. Why didn't you choose Bucyrus, Ohio? You could have moved there for way less money. So, I mean, this is affordable and it's got other benefits right? Joe: [00:14:32] Yeah it's got a lot of a lot of amenities. Yeah. I mean, mountains, mountain biking, whitewater rafting, everything I want to do outdoors, like today.

Wyatt: [00:14:39] What were you just doing before you got here? Joe: [00:14:40] I was hiking.

Wyatt: [00:14:41] OK, right on. Is December.

Wyatt: [00:14:42] And we moved the podcast so that I could go. Yeah, exactly. And like that's the.

Barna: [00:14:47] Priorities. That's what we got. Joe: [00:14:48] Because I have, the one benefit I do have my life. And this is also because I've busted my ass for so many years and I am now a well, esteemed technologists. It's been a lot of work together, but like I have a lot of flexibility in my life. So I'll go work from 7:00 in the morning until 11:00 in the morning, and then I'll take my afternoons off, enjoy the sun and then I'll work from three to seven. You know, I can run my days like that because I don't have a factory job, but we've traded off flexibility for completely being like in jail to debt for the rest of our lives.

Barna: [00:15:19] On your own. Joe: [00:15:20] Yeah on your own.

Barna: [00:15:22] Where before you had, what you said, pension, a set job that you can go to and you can afford the house you could afford everything. Now you're like, no I am a subcontractor. You have a job?

Wyatt: [00:15:33] Yeah, that's what I mean. That's that was part of the attraction for for for what I do right. Is that you become the professional. People go, hey, how do I do this? You grind for years in the trenches. I was on my hands and knees. I am almost every day setting tile or doing trim or whatever. But at the end of the day, I don't have a boss. I have a customer. If my customers happy and the check shows up. I survived. Made it, made it through another one, you know, hand the money off to the other guy because the debts they're still there. And why, why does this housing exist? Why is this affordable? Because we figured out a way to do it. And that's why the project is so important, because it's like you take a technologist like yourself that would otherwise be traveling or living in San Francisco or wherever. Well, we're building a place for you to come here. Clearly, it's appealing because of all the other opportunities, the weather, the hiking, the biking, Joe: [00:16:24] The communities, the community that's been built out here, too, though, right? That's it. That was a big attractor for me. I mean, you got they got you got great schools out here for the kids. The stuff that's happening here at Emergent is a rare thing. This doesn't this doesn't happen in small towns where it's affordable to live. Right. There's a lot of work that's been done by everyone in this community to build the platform to make it attractive to someone like me.

Wyatt: [00:16:49] If you build it, they will come right. Joe: [00:16:50] And I know I don't mean to sound privileged there, but yeah, like I have the choice to not come to a place like this. Some people were born here and have to deal with the situation. And these guys, everyone here has developed out a lot of opportunity for people. My, my goal coming here is one I can afford it two I can help accelerate an opportunity that will make it so the next generation of people in this area don't have to go through what I went through, you know, like that's the whole idea with my work at this point. I'm not saying I've given up on my life by any means. What I'm saying it's the time to invest in the future. And if we really want to make change, you go to places where you can, like, make boomerang exchanges of wealth, not just like linearly build your blocks over the course of your life and, you know, die.

Wyatt: [00:17:30] Right. Joe: [00:17:31] So you were talking about like, well, why are you making the decisions you are? And because right now I'm looking at buying a full size house. You know, we were talking about this the other day. Yeah. And it's not in any way because I don't support what you guys are doing. It's because for me, I'm looking to buy something that I can have a bunch of my friends over, too, because I've traveled I've literally lived off couches for the last three and a half years.

Wyatt: [00:17:52] Homeless. Joe: [00:17:53] Homeless, literally.

Wyatt: [00:17:54] I know that game.

Barna: [00:17:57] I was going to say, everybody in this room also has in commons is that everybody's lived out of a car.

Wyatt: [00:18:00] Yeah. Joe: [00:18:01] Yeah, yeah.

Barna: [00:18:01] Everybody in this room. Joe: [00:18:02] Yes, I have sleept. I have a parka. I have a really big parka. And everyone is like, why do you need that it's not that cold. Because I sleep in it sometimes in my car. Like this is my mobile home.

Wyatt: [00:18:12] Yeah. Yeah. I brought my house with me.

Barna: [00:18:15] I've slept on a beach. OK, it's, it's fine, you I don't need a hotel room. Joe: [00:18:18] The streets of Chicago, done it.

Wyatt: [00:18:20] If you haven't slept outside you haven't lived. Joe: [00:18:22] I got locked out accidently. I got stuck on a bench in the middle of Chicago like that was terrifying. But did it, you know.

Wyatt: [00:18:28] But did you die? Joe: [00:18:29] I didn't. I did wake up to some really sketchy shit happening across the sidewalk from me. So I just got up and found another bench. But yeah, \.

Wyatt: [00:18:36] It's real. It's real life. Joe: [00:18:37] I've done it. Yeah.

Barna: [00:18:38] Prime location right there. I don't like this neighborhood going down to the other bench.

Wyatt: [00:18:43] Mobile home. Joe: [00:18:43] Freedom.

Wyatt: [00:18:46] Everybody's sitting at the with a microphone right now also has at least one college degree. Joe: [00:18:51] Yeah I have 2.

Wyatt: [00:18:51] Yeah. Yeah. You got a pair. How many you got.

Barna: [00:18:54] I just got one.

Wyatt: [00:18:54] I only got the one you know. So great. So we all have suffered through education debt. Joe: [00:18:58] That was mostly because I saw Van Wilder as a freshman and I was like, I need to go seven years, I only made it six. So..

Barna: [00:19:06] I did five.

Wyatt: [00:19:11] Like other than that, I mean, the things that we wanted to talk about, I think we're obviously understanding more about yourself, more about like what you've been doing, what you've been working on.

Barna: [00:19:19] I think we should go over what Emergent is because

Wyatt: [00:19:21] Yeah, we mentioned it.

Barna: [00:19:22] We mentioned Emergent. But nobody listening to us knows. So that's where my office is, that's where we're recording today. Last couple times we're recording in your workshop, which is also an Emerging campus. It's the old Florence High School.

Wyatt: [00:19:36] Yeah, it's an old high school building that was turned into, I'll summarize it, into like a business incubation place where small businesses can come, rub elbows with other small businesses and ideally grow and be in a comingled community of other businesses. Right. Different business. Like like you said, I have a workshop of like a woodworking shop next door to an electronic. How would you describe yours, Barna?

Barna: [00:19:59] Umm. Joe: [00:20:01] I think it's like a couple thrusters away from a spaceship, so.

Barna: [00:20:05] It's my stuff in a room full of stuff. It's 4 businesses in one room.

Wyatt: [00:20:13] And then I mean there's a Boys and Girls Club in the same building and there's I think Brock is upstairs with Brux Releaf where he has a product that helps with it's a sleep aid essentially device for people that suffer from bruxism. Joe: [00:20:25] Grinding your teeth.

Wyatt: [00:20:30] Grinding, teeth grinding in their sleep.

Barna: [00:20:32] And double under wonder is up here too.

Wyatt: [00:20:34] Double Under Wonder is upstairs. And so, you know, they make custom jump ropes and and that's before we even get into the tech side. Over at the other buildings.

Barna: [00:20:41] This is the small building. There's the big building.

Wyatt: [00:20:44] Yeah, exactly. So that's what Emergen is to me is an incubator. Is it something like you've seen like that in larger cities primarily? Joe: [00:20:51] Yeah. The thing for me that makes this unique and enjoyable is that it's not just tech companies like in New York. I've advised like We Work Labs, I've advised a Tech Stars, several other like very large name startup accelerators. And it's all tech companies, it's all software. It's all invisible, not touchable, not really that enjoyable. Many of them are trying to create another marketing platform or another social media platform. I'm just like you realize there's absolutely no productive value in what you're doing, right? Like it's not there's literally no product value.

Barna: [00:21:24] We had that conversation not that long ago and I was going to bring that up to is all the technology companies like, yeah, you create a marketing platform, you create a social media platform, but it's really a marketing platform. Google, same thing. You're just selling something else, right, where it's ad space that's selling somebodies product. Joe: [00:21:42] It's a hype machine.

Barna: [00:21:43] Who's going to. Joe: [00:21:43] It's literally just hype machine. As soon as the hype is done. It's done.

Barna: [00:21:46] Who's going make all the products when Amazon puts everybody out of business or Google puts everybody out of business who's going to be left to work. Joe: [00:21:53] Well, why do you think Jeff Bezos and Mark Zuckerberg and some of these guys want universal basic income? They know they're going to take all the jobs. They know they're going to eat up the economy and they want to give people money because if people don't have money, they're going to die. Yeah, the poor will eat the rich. That's how it goes. Listen to Kendrick Lamar. Yeah. Mortal Man. It's twelve minute song. It'll explain it, explain the whole thing.

Wyatt: [00:22:19] But yeah, I mean, and that's the whole thing. Right. Like we've talked about, you have to trade money with your neighbor so they have money to trade money back with you. It was just one of those things where, like, we need to do a deeper dive on the choice because I had to pick you could. And you've and you've seen many places. And it's so it's like I know why I picked here. And it sounds like we have a pretty similar list of things. Wonderfully different career choices. Right. But when you become a professional inside of one thing or like Barna, I mean, professional in many things. Joe: [00:22:45] Jobs, just a job. Right. Job is just an economic purpose that drives money into your pocket. Right. But life is life. There's only so many general principles to life to make your life enjoyable and happy.

Wyatt: [00:22:57] I said it to somebody the other day, like, I have fewer seconds on planet Earth now than I did when I first thought about saying that. Yeah, I just burnt ten seconds of my life. I can't get it back. Like finite resource. Joe: [00:23:06] Like what's coming out of your mouth. And do I need to listen to it because I'm dying as you talk.

Wyatt: [00:23:10] Right. I'm fucking dying.

Barna: [00:23:12] We're all dying right now. Joe: [00:23:13] Yeah, exactly right. And so once you understand, like, what your life is supposed to be about. What did what did somebody say? Someone who's found inspiration. It's almost futile to to advise them, right? So like, here we are. Joe: [00:23:28] It's been ignorant to try to advise me since I was.

Wyatt: [00:23:30] Yeah exactly. Yeah. Yeah. That was fun. Joe: [00:23:32] I got a, I got a thirty five on the math section of the ACT when I graduated high school I missed two questions on the whole thing. You know, I did, I went into college and my advisor, this is why I don't advise me, she goes, you should be a math professor. And I said, that sounds fucking terrible. I went and did something completely opposite.

Wyatt: [00:23:48] Dude they told me when I was in high school that I couldn't become an engineer. So I took all the math classes all the way through until he looked at my transcript at the end of high school and was like, you took every single available math credit, possible computer science, all of them. Yeah, well, you told me I fucking couldn't. So are we done now?

Barna: [00:24:05] Oh, is this going back to the FU project, like every single thing.

Wyatt: [00:24:08] But that's everybody that's sitting at this table right now. We said this earlier today. And like most of the things that have that we have done, Barna and I together in business is because somebody pissed us off. They said, no, you can't or no, no, no. And it's like you picked the wrong fucking group.

Barna: [00:24:23] Barna, that's not realistic.

Wyatt: [00:24:24] Oh, yeah. Oh, you got to love it. Right.

Barna: [00:24:27] Check this out.

Wyatt: [00:24:27] And that's the beauty of like this room and this podcast in this time in our life, because it's like. Joe: [00:24:33] I would say mine's less of the spite. Less of the like, oh, you can't do it. Mine's more just like I want to do this. Yeah. Like this is America.

Wyatt: [00:24:41] Yeah. Joe: [00:24:41] I do what I want.

Barna: [00:24:42] I can do whatever I want. That's the best part.

Wyatt: [00:24:44] This is still America.

Barna: [00:24:49] Follow us, like us, share, subscribe. Follow us on YouTube, Instagram, Facebook or wherever you consume your podcasts.